An introductory section of this conversation is snipped. It was about our friend feeling they have "so much positivity to give freely..." and their experience coming to know, or feel certain about that.

(Parts of this conversation are similarly snipped for privacy and brevity.)

That’s… that’s not just a tautology, is it? You understand yourself that way for a reason, or a feeling. It comes from somewhere

I don’t know. I haven’t been feeling, uh, great the last few days, I guess. I feel stuck, but I don’t feel like I deserve to get un-stuck… or to want to get un-stuck… because I feel I don’t have that much to "give freely"

Why don't you? that feels like, wrong to me at least, you give a lot to me I think

It’s bullshit. Obviously I do. I don’t feel that way though. I can’t figure out how to

Right now a lot of it is more to do with the work I do for the music wiki. I feel like an idiot for wanting to make anything different there, but I feel like I’m almost as good as useless working the way things are.

This sense that I’m pointless if I can’t figure out the right way to interface with someone so I can give to them. Or connect with them. Or help them connect with me

I’m tired and no one is working with me to… to do anything to do with what’s making me tired

I feel awful for feeling tired and letting it show. Like if I’m a burden, I’d better not be in anyone’s sights about it

like you have to do all of the work to give others tools to help you and then you don't even get helped then?

I feel like no one ever tries to give me tools. I feel like I have to figure everything out for myself, and I just don’t have the wherewithal for that, that I’d like to

I don’t know. Like, I make a damn point of acknowledging the work people do in the music wiki discord. I don’t care if it’s critically relevant to ongoing projects or not. I pay attention to what people are doing and I tell them what I think, which is usually that it’s genuinely meaningful and impactful work. Even if it’s only in small ways.

Hell no!
You work hard for others as a kindness and you deserve respect and love for it

—because people do once in a while acknowledge that I’m doing a lot of work. For fuck’s sake after spending eight hours straight on data catching-up people told me to take care

You might as well be a cheerleader on bleacher chairs if what you’re telling me is “woo! wow! take care don’t work yourself to death jesus christ!”

I need anyone to be… doing anything at all to acknowledge the actual things I’m putting myself and my time into

I don’t want respect. I want care, sure, but not respect.
I want my work to be respected

I literally can’t tell if people are intimidated by me or if they just don’t like talking to me. That’s not a fun personal ambiguity. Like, lose/lose here, a bit.

You don’t like talking to me? OK whatever. It’s fine. I don’t like talking to me.

You’re intimidated by me? Well you aren’t going to tell me how, are you? So I guess I can just fuck myself

I don’t mean “intimidated” like… scared of a harsh reaction — I mean it like, no one knows what to say to me. So they say nothing. Instead of...

I can’t make changes that will make me easier for you to talk to if you won’t give me an inkling of why I’m hard to talk to in the first place.

right? and the work is never just Done, like you have to lay out every step - and even then it happens maybe half the time

No one
Puts in that time for me. No one tries to play their own part in it. No one realizes that me changing myself for them is… is emotional labor. Is work. Is one of the things I want respected, and not ignored or minimized.

If someone’s trying and you care that they’re trying, you try to show it by trying for them. By taking in what they’re doing for you and seeing if there’s some way you can reflect it. This isn’t social rocket science

Is it that confusing or counterintuitive to separate care for a person from respect for what they do for you?

Like is this a 500 IQ fucking, “I didn’t go to connecting with people school so I’m going to completely ignore how you see things because I can’t connect with someone on their level if their level is CLEARLY LEAGUES ABOVE MINE”

When I give up nothing happens. I can’t live with nothing happening. Y’all seem to think it’s just fine if you quit because you decided something isn’t worth it, but you never seem to think about the consequences!

I said I’m a bitch, right. Well I don’t like being made to feel like a bitch, but I will not even begin to deny that I am a bitch.

I feel like no one ever thinks to ask about the consequences of them giving up on anything.

It’s like, you rationalize that blah blah it doesn’t matter, nothing bad that will come of this is that bad.

You don’t ask, hey, is there anyone who will understand the consequences — especially on them — better than I possibly could

It’s just chronic, and everywhere. In the music wiki people entirely of their own volition make commitments that they don’t follow through on, and they act like I can’t fucking see it. They act like they don’t have a resoonsibility to consider how that affects anyone or anything.

Our mom still calls us Jade when she’s upset and it’s so, so rare that she comes to us apologizing or even acknowledging she’s done it.

(Gender is a fuck, etc. But also it’s my fuck, not, not this “Jade” bastard’s who won’t get out of OUR MOM’S HEAD, apparently.)

Is it so damn hard? Is it so hard to think that when you are having strong feelings—

That it’s going to come from WHOEVER IS FUCKING STANDING IN FRONT IF YOU. NOT SOME “JADE” FICTION YOU WON’T LET GO OF??

I really don’t think she respects that plurality isn’t just a thing we turn off when it’s inconvenient.

I get that I get that I get that
Feels like. when I get like berated by someone because they're upset and then expected to do the emotional work of dealing with why they're upset

She never asks. Hey. Who am I talking to. Who did I just say things that might have been hurtful to. And, did they hurt you? Did they affect you?

It’s like we’re play figurines, man. Like we’re LARPing all the time instead of, like, actually being different people.

it's like slipping would be fine, but you're slipping from a state that's already nothing?

Slipping would be fine if you consistently made an effort to acknowledge the consequences of slipping.

She doesn’t, so it hurts, and it makes nothing feel as real as she actually wants it to.

I think I feel really similarly with stuff w/ [someone close]. It's never actually been demonstrated that they could work to find something that would make up for all the times I've been, berated - I get maybe an apology that never actually covers more than like immediately not drowning

But goddammit, don’t let yourself just give up on how the hurtful things you do make each of us feel. I just

But if you won’t acknowledge and care about and take any steps at all to respect how you hurt someone—

You’re really missing a crucial piece of
Treating them like a person. Making them real

We spend time acknowledging each others’ feelings out loud — to you, to our mom, in the wiki discord — because it’s part of how we make each other real. We acknowledge that we don’t understand each other perfectly

But basically most people don’t spend any time at all acknowledging each of us more than what we literally present them with in a moment.

It’s mainly exhausting because people treat physically distinct humans as their own persons and will happily acknowledge that they exist

But not us, no. No one’s ever asked me how things are between me and Tangle lately. Not even once

that's really rough
i think i'm cognizant of the fact that i haven't been doing a lot in that avenue but i haven't really explicated or like verbally recognized it

But it is meaningful to all of us, and it’s not something we get much of from anyone

I've definitely been like, given the tools to also... I'm going to preface by saying I'm [not immediately available], so i can't actually give my 100% attention but I can talk

I wanna give more of that to u
u deserve my curiosity & like engagement

I don’t know. I think people make their own tools, too. It’s… it’s more like we’ve given you the blueprint, or some opportunities, or some materials and guidelines

(I’m making uh, noodle. I’ll be back in a couple of minutes. Thank you - I just - gotta clear my head of noodle prep)

I knew I was signing myself up for this question. Almost like choosing a non-trivial question was the point, but I can still curse out me of ten minutes ago...

The things aren't bad, but maybe a bit strained. I think we've both accidentally made her to represent some of the things that I might or might not be able to change, and the concern I have over that ambiguity, and I mean... I get it. I know where that's coming from, and I appreciate it. I appreciate that she's doing that for me. But I also kind of just want to treat her as a normal person, too, and I worry that we're... not doing that consciously as much as I'd like. Even though they're a constant and incredible presence.

I look at people not partaking in projects I'd just love for literally anyone to show any interest in, and Tangle says: OK that's too bad!! I mean that sucks, I'm sorry!! But let's think about why that is and maybe figure out if it... if it's something you want to be different, then let's think about what some of the ways we could actually get there are, and put those in some context? Because maybe it's not as out of reach as you think and we just need to think about it a little differently!

That's cool. That's right. I love that and I need someone like that, because I'd drop like a fly otherwise, and... I mean, I just like having someone who cares about what I want, and wants to help make it possible. But I'm tired. I just want anything at all to be easy, and I find it... so hard... to try to get there

I know that Tangle has the mind and spirit to figure out how to make things that are hard both seem and really be easier, and I want to engage with that more, but I find it hard because I... don't feel like the fact that it's hard and scary in the first place is... something she knows how to handle

Does it feel frustrating that tangle like, tries to walk you through stuff but like can't help you actually just actualize it?

I don't know. I don't really think so - I don't think I'd be able to put the blame on her for that, because she actually is able to take on stuff. I... I worry that I'm not giving her that opportunity, and it's making her feel like it's never truly an option for her

Like assigning someone to nothing when they actually want to help you and have ideas on how to do it. I don't mean to put down her ideas but - I mean, if I'm not making room for them, I'm not. I... I feel like that's maybe something I could change in myself

It's not fair to put that on Tangle, but I think I... kind of subconsciously have, a bit