hopes and dreams penumbra ref + ref sources

NEEDS CAHNGELOG. CHANGELOG

2 files changed, 498 insertions, 0 deletions

diff --git a/album/undertale-soundtrack.yaml b/album/undertale-soundtrack.yaml
index 2e141bed..d2075a65 100644
--- a/album/undertale-soundtrack.yaml
+++ b/album/undertale-soundtrack.yaml
@@ -840,6 +840,7 @@ Referenced Tracks:
 - Undertale
 - Your Best Friend
 - Snowdin Town
+- Penumbra Phantasm
 Commentary: |-
     <i>Toby Fox:</i> ([collector's edition sheet music booklet](https://www.fangamer.com/products/undertale-game-switch-ps4-vita))
 
@@ -848,6 +849,479 @@ Commentary: |-
     However, my wrists have some kind of problem now, so I can't play the piano for very long anymore. That's OK though. Anyway, once you learn this song, be sure to play it any way you like. Express yourself. But, you must make sure that your self-expression doesn't destroy your body.
 
     PS - It's irrelevant to the piano version, but the way I arranged it in game is inspired by the band [[artist:anamanaguchi|Anamanaguchi]].
+Referencing Sources:
+- Date: July 12, 2023
+  Artists: [Monckat, Witch's Cadence]
+  Annotation: >-
+    [HSMusic Discord](https://discord.com/channels/749042497610842152/749067042250031214/1128745568659841074),
+    excerpt
+  Body: |-
+    <i>Monckat:</i><br>
+    alright so my ears may be playing tricks on me but at 1:18 in Hopes and Dreams, quietly and mostly in the right channel... [(YouTube link)](https://youtu.be/tz82xbLvK_k?t=78)<br>
+    ...is that penumbra phantasm?<br>
+    specifically the penumbra variant of doctor<br>
+    i can hear it in [[SAVE the World]] too [at 1:35](https://youtu.be/LAn-JYzKm5M?t=95)
+
+    <i>Witch's Cadence:</i> Yes that has been noticed by a good amount of people<br>
+    <i>Monckat:</i> ah cool i would've assumed
+
+    <i>Witch's Cadence:</i><br>
+    It's most likely actually penumbra phantasm but no one has any idea why<br>
+    Like this isn't like the thing with him [[track:battle-battle-tower|"putting the baby is you in pokemon"]]<br>
+    That one was silly this is like an exact direct quote<br>
+    Not to mention it's like<br>
+    he tried to hide it in there<br>
+    but it is definitely unarguably penumbra phantasm
+
+    <i>Monckat:</i><br>
+    yeah it definitely feels intentional, i remember joking ages ago that penumbra phantasm would be the final boss music of deltarune but that seems less and less like a joke
+- Date: March 7, 2024
+  Artists: [ruby, Jebb, Witch's Cadence]
+  Annotation: >-
+    [HSMusic Discord](https://discord.com/channels/749042497610842152/779895315750715422/1215264520965062706),
+    excerpts
+  Body: |-
+    <i>ruby:</i><br>
+    I've always been skeptical on the whole "Penumbra Phantasm is in Hopes and Dreams" thing, but the other day I accidentally isolated that piano part in [[SAVE the World]] and [[Last Goodbye]] (it's basically the same as in HaD), and now I'm starting to actually believe it was done intentionally lmao<br>
+    feels more intentional than [[THE HOLY]]
+
+    [...]
+
+    <i>ruby:</i>
+
+    <audio src="media/misc/hopes-and-dreams/saveee_PROCESSED.wav"></audio>
+
+    [...]
+
+    <i>ruby:</i><br>
+    (wip) i have resorted to spectral editing jesus
+
+    <audio src="media/misc/hopes-and-dreams/1_stereo_side_right_Other_EQd_Source_1.wav"></audio>
+
+    <i>Jebb:</i> ruby over here trying to spirit box Penumbra Phantasm<br>
+    <i>Witch's Cadence:</i> lol<br>
+    <i>ruby:</i> LMFAO
+
+    <i>Witch's Cadence:</i> I thought the glockenspiel part was obvious<br>
+    <i>Witch's Cadence:</i> lmao it's literally just penumbra phantasm<br>
+    <i>ruby:</i> glockenspiel is playing undertale melody, the piano is potential pp<br>
+    <i>Witch's Cadence:</i> Hold on<br>
+    <i>Witch's Cadence:</i> Oh maybe it was a piano my mistake<br>
+    <i>Witch's Cadence:</i> but yeah I can hear that it's clearly pp
+
+    <i>ruby:</i><br>
+    i'm trying to isolate it as best as i can, so i can transcribe it, so i can match it up with pp, so i can see how similar it actually is
+
+    whether it's a case of just sounding similar, but being completely different (like [[track:dating-start|Gaster's Theme in Dating Start]] - which isn't there, the actual notes are nothing like Gaster), or genuinely similar
+
+    the piano plays something like this (this is from before i went spectral, so it's not accurate yet)
+
+    <audio src="media/misc/hopes-and-dreams/untitled.wav"></audio>
+    <audio src="media/misc/hopes-and-dreams/untitled2.wav"></audio>
+
+    since the piano is so hard to make out, I'm trying to get it more clear, cus this initial attempt is too tainted by my brain wanting it to be pp
+
+    <i>Witch's Cadence:</i><br>
+    pretty sure the top notes in that part of the piano is this
+
+    <audio src="media/misc/hopes-and-dreams/hoPPes_and_dreams.wav"></audio>
+
+    first plays just piano<br>
+    then actual hopes and dreams<br>
+    then both layered
+
+    <i>ruby:</i><br>
+    see, I am not 100% convinced the top note goes   B > A# > C# > A# > A#>B<br>
+    cus it kinda sounds like instead of C#, it's just B again<br>
+    in [[SAVE the World]]/[[Last Goodbye]], that is<br>
+    as that's the song(s) I'm using as reference
+
+    <i>Witch's Cadence:</i> this is hopes and dreams not save the world<br>
+    <i>ruby:</i> that's why I clarified<br>
+    <i>Witch's Cadence:</i> gotcha gotcha<br>
+    <i>ruby:</i> cus different key
+
+    <i>Witch's Cadence:</i><br>
+    I'll have to check save the world myself but in hopes and dreams it definitely goes Bb > A > C > A > A>Bb<br>
+    I'm not sure if I've ever heard anyone say that it's in StW actually<br>
+    I always just thought it was in HnD
+
+    <i>ruby:</i><br>
+    neither had I, though I noticed yesterday that StW/LG (they are the same song, thats why I keep grouping them together) also had the piano part<br>
+    presumably carried over from HaD, if that's the order the songs were made
+
+    [...]
+
+    <i>ruby:</i><br>
+    I'll just leave these here
+
+    <audio src="media/misc/hopes-and-dreams/1_stereo_side_right_Other_EQd_Original_Mix.wav"></audio>
+
+    <audio src="media/misc/hopes-and-dreams/1_stereo_side_right_Other_EQd_Source_1.wav"></audio>
+
+    <audio src="media/misc/hopes-and-dreams/1_stereo_side_right_Other_EQd_Source_2.wav"></audio>
+
+    tried my best to get the piano in 1, so everything else is in 2
+
+    <i>Jebb:</i> What if it's just a coincidence 🙂
+
+    <i>ruby:</i><br>
+    I could argue that for the holy<br>
+    but this is too similar to where Toby must have noticed it<br>
+    same notes, played on the same instrument<br>
+    pp is 170 bpm, had is like 170.674, stw/lg are 180
+
+    <i>Jebb:</i> Nah surely 🙂
+
+    <i>Rosetta Leijonde:</i> Which "same instrument" there's like 10 of them
+
+    <i>ruby:</i><br>
+    piano<br>
+    both playing the
+
+    <audio src="media/misc/hopes-and-dreams/untitled2.wav"></audio>
+
+    on a piano
+
+    <audio src="media/misc/hopes-and-dreams/untitled3.wav"></audio>
+
+    if this was unintentional, that'd be a huge oversight<br>
+    on toby's part<br>
+    for how much he tossed around pp phrases throughout homestuck music, seems very, very unlikely
+
+    <s>Deltarune final boss will be Penumbra Phantasm? nah, it was already finalized as Hopes and Dreams almost a decade ago</s> :howhigh:
+
+    <i>Jebb:</i><br>
+    God<br>
+    Think we should add this to the reference list? <small>(<i>ruby:</i> also yes</small>)<br>
+    Or is it<br>
+    ALREADY THERE<br>
+    ? <small>(<i>ruby:</i> also no)</small>
+
+    <i>ruby:</i><br>
+    <s>there are the pp-sounding flutes...</s>
+
+    [...]
+
+    <i>ruby:</i><br>
+    (this is a joke)
+
+    <audio src="media/misc/hopes-and-dreams/hopes_and_dreams_is_a_penumbra_phantasm_remix.wav"></audio>
+- Date: June 4, 2024
+  Artists: [Jebb, Makin, ruby]
+  Annotation: >-
+    [HSMusic Discord](https://discord.com/channels/749042497610842152/749067042250031214/1247621290714468492),
+    excerpt
+  Body: |-
+    <i>Jebb:</i><br>
+    [[artist:ruby|@ruby]] Some dude recreated Hopes and Dreams without the main melody, check out this part [(YouTube link)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lUvyvYgHl4&t=78s)
+
+    <i>Makin:</i> that's doctor
+
+    <i>ruby:</i> pp*<br>
+    we went over this before
+
+    <i>Jebb:</i><br>
+    I think that Penumbra Phantasm might have a legally distinct doctor as its riff melody
+
+    <i>ruby:</i><br>
+    pp/sotww piano riff is definitely related to doctor yea<br>
+    but, as we went over before, the piano here is very much the same as pp specifically
+- Date: July 2, 2024
+  Artists: [Interrobang, ruby, Makin]
+  Annotation: >-
+    [HSMusic Discord](https://discord.com/channels/749042497610842152/749067042250031214/1257691332286222418),
+    excerpt
+  Body: |-
+    *(Continued from a discussion re: Penumbra Phantasm being referenced in [[track:octoroon-rangoon]])*
+
+    <i>Interrobang:</i><br>
+    Part of me wants to just defer to whatever toby put in the track description since hes the only one who really knows what is and isnt penumbra<br>
+    But also they definitely werent always thorough on the hs bandcamp
+
+    <i>ruby:</i><br>
+    I feel like it's a case of Hopes and Dreams, where it's close enough to where he has had to have realized he put it in if he did do it accidentally
+
+    <i>Makin:</i> I'm still unconvinced about hopes and dreams lol
+
+    <i>Interrobang:</i> I dont really know what you mean<br>
+    <i>Interrobang:</i> Whats the hopes and dreams thing
+
+    <i>ruby:</i><br>
+    a while ago we had a big discussion regarding a potential penumbra reference in Hopes and Dreams, SAVE the World, and Last Goodbye<br>
+    there's a part with a piano in the background that's barely audible yet plays something basically identical to the pp piano riff<br>
+    as ridiculous as it sounds
+
+    <i>Interrobang:</i><br>
+    The one thats the incredibly common pattern of four notes?
+
+    <i>Makin:</i><br>
+    it would be doctor, but toby fox analysts have convinced themselves there's a special doctor PP edition
+
+    <i>Interrobang:</i><br>
+    Yeah i cant say im convinced<br>
+    I think the octoroon rangoon one is more likely though
+
+    <i>Makin:</i> same
+
+    <i>Interrobang:</i><br>
+    My suspicion is that toby fox stopped thinking about penumbra so much after a point
+
+    <i>Makin:</i><br>
+    yeah he instead started focusing on thinking about the baby is 2 so he could [[track:battle-battle-tower|reuse it in a pokemon theme]]
+
+    <i>ruby:</i><br>
+    (keys adjusted)
+
+    <audio src="media/misc/hopes-and-dreams/doctor.wav"></audio>
+
+    <audio src="media/misc/hopes-and-dreams/penumbra.wav"></audio>
+
+    top note on Doctor goes B A# C# A# C# A# while Penumbra goes B A# C# A# A# B
+
+    sotww notably follows doctor here<br>
+    hopes and dreams follows pp
+
+    <i>Interrobang:</i> I agree that there is a difference
+
+    <i>Jebb:</i><br>
+    Oh shit thanks actually<br>
+    This helps with the Strifin [[Descendascend]] debacle of whether it refs doctor or Saviour<br>
+    The chords in that song are more similar to penumbra and therefore saviour so yeah
+
+    <i>ruby:</i><br>
+    sotww is doctor with pp melody added, the main riff is doctor<br>
+    I use "pp melody" loosely, I believe it's implied sotww came first
+
+    <i>Interrobang:</i><br>
+    If toby had never put “references penumbra phantasm” in however many hs songs hed have saved us many a headache
+- Date: October 4, 2024
+  Artists: [Red Rax, Rainy, Jebb, ruby]
+  Annotation: >-
+    [HSMusic Discord](https://discord.com/channels/749042497610842152/749067042250031214/1291804036223467610),
+    excerpt
+  Body: |-
+    <i>Red Rax:</i><br>
+    My opinion is that all of these references that are kind of unclear like penumbra phantasm in hopes and dreams or [[track:core|core]] in [[track:oppa-toby-style|oppa Toby style]] or [[track:gasters-theme|gasters theme]] in whatever are just genuine coincidences
+
+    I feel like Toby Fox, who’s written so many melodies over his career, might just accidentally repeat himself at some point, subconsciously using something he already wrote
+
+    Just look at [[track:battle-battle-tower|the song he did]] for Pokémon sword and shield!  It sounds VERY similar to a The Baby Is You song, but Toby said that he came up with the melody on the way back from a meeting with the Pokémon people, and I’m very much inclined to believe that he did and just accidentally reused a melody he’d forgotten he’d already written
+
+    <i>Rainy:</i><br>
+    Yeah I agree<br>
+    Dudes only human and he's bound to reuse melodies unintentionally<br>
+    Like look at that hopes and dreams-esque melody in [[track:snow-pollen|snow pollen]]
+
+    <i>Jebb:</i><br>
+    Yeah<br>
+    Once again i began to reconsider a lot of things after i found out that my brain accidentally redid a bassline 1 to 1 note to note in one of the songs i submitted to lofam<br>
+    I need to edit together a small video so that i can reference this easier<br>
+    But yeah<br>
+    The brain is super good at accidentally regurgitating melodies you like<br>
+    Penumbra phantasm in hopes and dreams may be an accident, so may baby is you in pokemon, so can many other things<br>
+    We can't know for sure
+
+    <i>ruby:</i><br>
+    pp in had feels so purposefully hidden though
+
+    <i>Jebb:</i><br>
+    Yeah i mean it WOULD make complete sense<br>
+    Hopes and dreams was like Toby's magnum opus for Undertale
+
+    <i>ruby:</i><br>
+    mhm, if there's any track with enough time and care put in to where it'd avoid accidental references, it'd be hopes and dreams<br>
+    but then again, we don't know
+- Date: December 11, 2024
+  Artists: [Rainy, ruby, Makin, Jebb]
+  Annotation: >-
+    [HSMusic Discord](https://discord.com/channels/749042497610842152/779895315750715422/1316429317969936414),
+    excerpt
+  Body: |-
+    <i>Rainy:</i><br>
+    It might be me being a hater who hates fun (I am but that's not the point) I feel like half the discussion around PP at this point feels like it's chasing it's own tail a bit
+
+    <i>ruby:</i><br>
+    we know nothing except some vague tumblr posts and some uncanny musical resamblences
+
+    <i>Rainy:</i><br>
+    Yeah hence why we're talking about the same stuff every month when the topic comes up lmao
+
+    <i>Makin:</i><br>
+    I agree, don't be disappointed if it turns out it's just a song he couldn't figure out how to make work and gave up on
+
+    <i>Rainy:</i><br>
+    I'm still of the opinion that if PP shows up at all, it will be an entirely different song with the same name
+
+    <i>Jebb:</i><br>
+    [A] lot of it is baseless speculation<br>
+    Ya gotta admit though the Hopes and Dreams and [[track:the-holy|The Holy]] examples do sound preeetty similar<br>
+    Though that could always be an accident
+
+    <i>ruby:</i><br>
+    it could be an accident, but seems very unlikely with how important both songs seem to be to him
+- Date: March 24, 2025
+  Artists: [Kenón, Witch's Cadence, Meulanie, ruby, Makin]
+  Annotation: >-
+    [HSMusic Discord](https://discord.com/channels/749042497610842152/1353743089164095548/1353800191622254666),
+    excerpt
+  Body: |-
+    <i>Kenón:</i><br>
+    I'm so glad someone mentioned [[track:oppa-toby-style|Penumbra in OTS]] because I thought I hallucinated it and was too scared to bring it up-
+
+    You don't wanna be the "Penumbra is in everything" gal but sometimes It Is In Fact In The Things
+
+    <i>Witch's Cadence:</i><br>
+    I mean it's a decently common enough motif throughout homestuck<br>
+    So it's not crazy to think it might be in a homestuck track<br>
+    It's when people think they hear it outside of homestuck that you really gotta double check
+
+    <i>Meulanie:</i><br>
+    maybe penumbra was the roaring knights we made along the waking world
+
+    <i>Kenón:</i><br>
+    I think it's fair to hear Penumbra in Hopes and Dreams and [[THE HOLY]], I think they were both intentional, but I also don't think Penumbra is going to be a Deltarune motif or the song itself will show up in the game
+
+    I think THE HOLY was derived directly from Penumbra, but is intentionally different enough to stand as its own separate motif, like Penumbra itself does for Doctor
+
+    It WILL show up as a motif throughout the game, but Penumbra itself won't.
+
+    <i>Meulanie:</i><br>
+    where did the "penumbra in deltarune" thing come from to begin with
+
+    <i>ruby:</i> cryptic tobyposting
+
+    <i>Makin:</i><br>
+    when he was teasing penumbra on tumblr he used wording that sounds a lot like deltarune lore<br>
+    and deltarune was always in the planning stages so it makes sense he decided to use it there
+
+    <i>ruby:</i> and then the holy happened to be kinda similar
+
+    <i>Kenón:</i><br>
+    His cryptic Deltarune Twitter messages were basically recordings of his cryptic Penumbra Q&A and Twitter messages
+
+    I'd say more than KINDA similar<br>
+    It's not the same but Toby absolutely knew what he was doing with that<br>
+    It was intentionally close
+
+    <i>Makin:</i><br>
+    I'm anti-PP-is-in-everything and I still think it's pretty likely it will be used in deltarune yeah, this isn't some insane fan cope
+
+    <i>ruby:</i><br>
+    oh i totally agree, it is too close for it to be coincidence
+    pp must mean a lot to toby, so there's no way he accidentaly made it so similar and shipped it without noticing
+    also PP in HaD
+- Date: May 6, 2025
+  Artists: [SergeantSnivy]
+  Annotation: >-
+    [YouTube comment](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTaibdPA8jU&lc=UgxsGa2fH5qHw1qx3xR4AaABAg)
+    on ["the PENUMBRA PHANTASM insanity spiral"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTaibdPA8jU)
+  Body: |-
+    [52:46](https://youtu.be/jTaibdPA8jU?t=3166) I really think you're underselling this. This excerpt in Hopes and Dreams is 100% quoting Penumbra specifically, not just [[Doctor]]. In particular, it's quoting the melody in the Penumbra piano demo at [12:55](https://youtu.be/jTaibdPA8jU?t=775). This melody in the demo sounds a lot like the first measure of Doctor, but it's distinct in two important ways:
+
+    - The final two notes are different
+    - The contour of the harmony exactly mirrors the contour of the melody, with only the intervals between notes slightly tweaked. The scale degrees of the melody are 3 2 4 2 2 3 while the harmony's are 5 4 7 4 4 5.
+
+    In the piano excerpt of Hopes and Dreams, the scale degrees in the melody and harmony are an exact match to this part of Penumbra (in a different key) rather than any part of Doctor.
+
+    For a similar reason, I'd also say that the excerpt of [[Oppa Toby Style]] at [13:28](https://youtu.be/jTaibdPA8jU?t=808) is definitely pulling from Penumbra. The melody is a bit jumbled up, but the correspondence between degrees in the melody and harmony is exactly the same as it is in Penumbra - 3 in the melody pairs with 5 in the harmony, 2 in the melody pairs with 4 in the harmony, etc.
+
+    Super well-done video overall, I just really wanted to point this out
+- Date: May 20, 2025
+  Artist Text: >-
+    [[artist:ruby]] and
+    [[artist:quasar-nebula|Jackie]]
+  Annotation: >-
+    [HSMusic Discord](https://discord.com/channels/749042497610842152/779895315750715422/1374380762136186890)
+  Body: |-
+    <i>ruby:</i><br>
+    oh right [the video](https://youtu.be/jTaibdPA8jU) said it was doctor in pp<br>
+    as I've gone over before, it is definitely pp and not doctor yeah<br>
+    but the part of pp itself is undeniably based on doctor<br>
+    saying hopes and dreams references doctor is like saying [[track:another-medium|another medium]] references [[track:doctor|doctor]]<br>
+    completely skipping over the middle step that is [[track:patient|patient]]
+
+    <i>Jackie:</i> there's a chain there yeah but it's a chain. the attachment isn't link A to link C
+
+    <i>ruby:</i><br>
+    but leaving out the middle link is leaving out incredibly important nuance<br>
+    because the part has been changed fundamentally<br>
+    so its appearance in C doesn't represent how it was in A<br>
+    yet it perfectly represents its appearance in B
+- Date: May 21, 2025
+  Artist Text: >-
+    [[artist:quasar-nebula|Lan]],
+    [[artist:makin]],
+    [[artist:witchs-cadence]], and
+    [[artist:ruby]]
+  Annotation: >-
+    [HSMusic Discord](https://discord.com/channels/749042497610842152/779895315750715422/1374787124007800842),
+    excerpt
+  Body: |-
+    <i>Lan:</i><br>
+    The conversation with PP in Hopes and Dreams is, well, something I've attempted to log in a huge as fuck "Referencing Sources" section for H&D on the music wiki... I need to get OK's from everyone before actually committing this, but I've gathered and re-read I think every single discussion about PP in H&D. (I've read a chunk of related stuff about PP in Deltarune more broadly, also.)
+
+    My takeaways on the convo presently are:
+
+    1. Mostly everybody agrees that Penumbra Phantasm is in Hopes and Dreams. (There's some argument that it's just Doctor, mainly from Makin in june/july 2024, but it's kinda fringe. Interrobang has also expressed skepticism that it's any particular motif at all.)
+
+    2. There's a substantial argument that although the reference *is there,* it might-well not be there *on purpose* — that Toby has reused melodies on accident because he is human and people do that. Comments on this angle from Red Rax and Rainy and Jebb, october 2024.
+
+    3. Deltarune fans are proooooooobably coming more and more to take it as Universal Fact that Penumbra Phantasm is in Hopes and Dreams. I haven't taken a real vibe check but I suspect that 99.8% of those fans will/do feel it's intentional.
+
+    <i>Makin:</i><br>
+    I retract my argument that it's doctor, and support the PP interpretation, though it's still possible toby reused it by accident
+
+    <i>Lan:</i><br>
+    It's kinda more sporadic so I don't think @vriska (8Ω 0.5W) actually shows up in the quoted records here at all, but she also expressed taking it as given / certain that PP exactly matches H&D, just to bring up another voice there, ex. [#music-discussion](https://discord.com/channels/749042497610842152/749067042250031214/1285630946753642578) - also shared their gut feeling re: how refs should be organized for the music wiki [#music-discussion](https://discord.com/channels/749042497610842152/749067042250031214/1239297520157593692) (<- I haven't gone through discussion from *this* link closely, but that comes next...)
+
+    Intentionality in referencing is a big subject of interest for the music wiki as a whole, in my opinion. My personal gut is that 1) I *do* think Toby is intentionally using PP at bare minimum in H&D and co. from Undertale, and that he is *probably* still thinking about it in Deltarune nowadays; and that 2) intentionality matters *enough* that I would say H&D does reference Penumbra Phantasm, but Battle! (Battle Tower) does not reference A Baby Legend.
+
+    or A History of Babies or whatever.
+
+    <i>Witch's Cadence:</i> yeah I agree with this
+
+    <i>Makin:</i> I don't think anyone has made a single good argument about battle tower
+
+    <i>Lan:</i> I'm entertaining the notion that they are dot for dot the same melody (i.e. analogous to PP in H&D), but yeah it's rhetorical haha I don't actually know (or care) anything about that one.
+
+    <i>Witch's Cadence:</i> I think if anything people have made fantastic arguments against it lol
+
+    <i>ruby:</i><br>
+    battle tower is not an exact match<br>
+    hopes and dreams is an exact match
+
+    <i>Lan:</i> As usual I am not a musician, I do not know music, and I don't really engage in Music Talk for my own sake, tho it interests me... but uh huh, ^nodding.
+
+    <i>ruby:</i><br>
+    battle tower is loosely the same melodic idea<br>
+    just toby-isms<br>
+    but the piano in hopes and dreams specifically plays the same thing as pp
+
+    <i>Makin:</i> I don't even think battle tower is even a mild match, it's like calling two arpeggios the same melody
+
+    <i>Lan:</i> From that angle, we can include PP in H&D on the grounds only that it's an exact match - without concerning intentionality
+
+    <i>ruby:</i><br>
+    we can't leave out intentionality here<br>
+    I always say this when we talk about it but<br>
+    both songs must mean a lot to toby<br>
+    there is no way it was done accidentaly
+
+    <i>Lan:</i> I 100% agree w/ this fwiw
+
+    <i>Makin:</i> I vote to leave out intentionality, if someone screws up and accidentally plays C instead of B, it's not a reference
+
+    <i>ruby:</i> [re: battle tower]<br>
+    it starts with the same rhythm, at the very least, but the notes don't match either way
+
+    <i>Lan:</i> The thing with intentionality for me is -
+
+    <i>ruby:</i><br>
+    we can't put words into toby's mouth<br>
+    and we shouldn't
+
+    <i>Lan:</i> I think it's critical to understanding music in context. I think it's something *we should think about* when considering what the Point of any music even is. But I also think it's super nebulous and speculative, very often, when we don't get a confident and unambiguous word one way or the other from the composer. That makes me hesitant to use it as a deciding factor - on whether to include or exclude a reference. (...But I wonder if it's necessary, sometimes, too.)
 ---
 Track: Burn in Despair!
 Duration: 0:21
@@ -866,6 +1340,13 @@ Referenced Tracks:
 - Hopes and Dreams
 - Once Upon a Time
 - Your Best Friend
+- Penumbra Phantasm
+Referencing Sources:
+- Date: May 21, 2025
+  Artists: [Quasar Nebula]
+  Annotation: wiki editor
+  Body: |-
+    Refer to [[Hopes and Dreams]] for a detailed record of discussion about the usage of [[Penumbra Phantasm]] in this track, that one, and [[Last Goodbye]].
 ---
 Track: His Theme
 Duration: 2:05
@@ -940,6 +1421,13 @@ Referenced Tracks:
 - SAVE the World
 - Once Upon a Time
 - Your Best Friend
+- Penumbra Phantasm
+Referencing Sources:
+- Date: May 21, 2025
+  Artists: [Quasar Nebula]
+  Annotation: wiki editor
+  Body: |-
+    Refer to [[Hopes and Dreams]] for a detailed record of discussion about the usage of [[Penumbra Phantasm]] in this track, that one, and [[SAVE the World]].
 ---
 Track: But the Earth Refused to Die
 Duration: 0:34
diff --git a/artists.yaml b/artists.yaml
index 7b1906fb..0714f6ba 100644
--- a/artists.yaml
+++ b/artists.yaml
@@ -7277,6 +7277,8 @@ Artist: Kenji Yamamoto
 ---
 Artist: Kenneth Ascher
 ---
+Artist: Kenón
+---
 Artist: Kenta Nagata
 ---
 Artist: Kera L. Jones
@@ -8972,6 +8974,8 @@ Artist: Metroid
 ---
 Artist: MettaToreodere
 ---
+Artist: Meulanie
+---
 Artist: MF DOOM
 ---
 Artist: M.Frisk
@@ -11254,6 +11258,8 @@ Artist: Red Pen
 URLs:
 - https://reddpenn.tumblr.com/
 ---
+Artist: Red Rax
+---
 Artist: redasatomato
 Aliases:
 - tomatokind
@@ -12213,6 +12219,10 @@ URLs:
 - https://serenmist.bandcamp.com/
 - https://witchoflight.tumblr.com/
 ---
+Artist: SergeantSnivy
+URLs:
+- https://www.youtube.com/@SergeantSnivy_
+---
 Artist: SerialSymphony
 Aliases:
 - Skip